Mosques at Ground Zero
One of the oft-repeated mantras of Fox News, Teabaggers, and other right-wing factions is that the current Democratic-controlled Congress and President are somehow violating the Constitution or wishing to. This is indicated by statements such as this Sarah Palin quote implying that Barack Obama wanted to ban guns.:
Back during the the last presidential race, normally sane Orrin Hatch spouted this incendiary crazy talk in an interview with Glenn Beck – the undisputed king of right wing crazy talk:
So there we have it – the US Constitution is hanging in the balance under attack from the left – a nefarious group of people trying to subvert the American way of life to a hell that is socialist at best but more likely communist. Now I don’t think Orrin Hatch believes that – but clearly he was willing to imply it when the Republicans were staring into the teeth of a filibuster-proof Democratic majority. That’s just wrong Orrin. And by the way – how many times did you get beat up by transgender liberals with a name like “Orrin Hatch”?
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And now we have these same defenders of the Constitution bemoaning the desire of “Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf to build an Islamic center and mosque at 45 Park Place, two blocks from the perimeter of the former World Trade Center towers.”. Given the tragic events of 911, the once-reasonable war in Afghanistan, and the WTF are we doing in Iraq war, it’s understandable that Americans have a lot of baggage with Islam.
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But here’s the funny thing about the Constitution. It can’t be arbitrarily applied or suspended according to the whim du jour. Freedom of religion is either a fundamental part of our Constitution – or it’s not. Freedom of speech is a constitutional guarantee or not.
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I’m about as left as they come and about the last thing I want to do is defend any religion – but as an American, I can’t pick and choose which fundamental rights I support. It’s all or nothing.
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So go ahead and tell everyone you know that I support building a mosque on privately owned land near ground zero – because I just can’t think of a way to prevent it that isn’t …. un-American. We don’t have to like it and we don’t have to march for it. But we also should not stand by when a fundamental freedom is threatened.
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America has many problems but religious tolerance isn’t one of them. It’s a key thread in the very fiber of the American tapestry.
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In closing, a great man once said:
Themocracy
I couldn’t agree more Mark… with everything above. The RIGHT WING LOONIES are a serious problem right now with how they are slandering the intent of the dems in congress. You know me… libertarian and proud of it, but the right has gone off the deep end.
And speaking of the mosque… I’m in 100% agreement that it should be allowed to be built. As you say, we have freedom of religion here. In fact, in my view, a mosque built there could go a long way toward healing some of the wounds between Islam and us… rightly, or wrongly, they see us as anti-Islam. What better evidence that we are not than to allow a mosque at the site of the attack?
However, I am a bit disappointed, and perhaps even dismayed at the complete lack of foresight, empathy, and common sense of the Imam in choosing this location. Can he really be surprised by the response?
I think some points need to be made here:
– This does not come under the First Amendment; there is no violation of either the establishment or free practice clauses. The fourteenth can be satisfied. States and localities have the power to regulate usage of property as to its appropriateness for usage. There are other properties available.
– There is no quarrel with the *religion* of Islam. Islam is not just a religion, but an all-encompassing system that rules every facet of the Muslim’s life. There is no separation between religious practice and personal life, politics, warfare, jurisprudence, nor any other human activity. Sharia also rules non-Muslims in Muslim countries. Apologists for Islam depict it as a ‘religion of peace,’ which it definitely not. Read the Q’uran.
Don’t you find it odd that Mayor Blumberg is pushing the mosque while St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church, which was destroyed on 9/11, has run up against so much red tape from city authorities that it remains unbuilt after nine years?
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/08/nine-years-later-church-at-ground-zero-still-not-rebuilt-but-mad-rush-to-build-islamic-supremacist-m.html
“The constitution is not a suicide pact.”
@Mike Carney
I want to comment on one point in your post, that we may be perceived as ‘anti-Islam.’ Frankly, I am. We have to make the distinction between Islam and Muslims. I deal with Muslims every day in their convenience stores. I find them to be hard-working, polite, clean, and charitable. I also find some of them dishonest. Four out of five ain’t bad.
Islam, on the other hand, is an expansionist, murderous, misogynistic, death cult founded by a polygamous child-raper. Islam is an intolerant regime that requires its followers to work toward worldwide hegemony regardless of the cost.
Unfortunately, I have read the Q’uran, and their own holy book indicts them. I became interested in Islam forty years ago after being confronted by a Black Muslim, and my natural curiosity led me to independent study of Q’uran and Hadith.
I too have read the Q’uran in 1989 to see if was as bad as I thought it was – it was worse. I found it to be the most repetitive nutty thing I’d ever read and had to put it down 3/4 of the way through after the 900th repetition of “smiting our enemies and being fed grapes by virgins in heaven” or some such nonsense. Perhaps if I could get myself a copy of Joseph Smith’s book of golden plates I might find something more wacky – but he “lost” that didn’t he …
I am no apologist for any religion least of all Islam – but there is no constitutional way to restrict the practice of any religion whether I like it or not.
@bumpkin
Agreed, I certainly don’t want to limit freedom of religion to anyone, Muslim, Jew, Bahai, Pastafarian, atheist or none of the above. This mosque is a symbol of conquest, just like the Dome of the Rock built on the Jewish Temple Mount, or the minarets on the Church of the Holy Wisdom (Hagia Sophia) in Istanbul. Calling it “Cordoba” memorializes the greatest extent of Muslim hegemony into Spain.
This is not a freedom of religion issue, but a clash of civilizations. Islam is an all or nothing deal. Those who deny this are in for a rude awakening. Take a look at Dearborn MI. Christianity has a checkered past, but Biblical Christianity, as revealed when ordinary people were allowed to read the scriptures, became something completely different, and was the basis for our secular society. A secular government is the best matrix for religious freedom. I am a Christian and I believe this.
@Ebenezer Attaquin
That Pastafarian/Flying Spaghetti Monster schtick never fails to crack me up.
Say what you will about right wingers, but you gotta admit, they got the chix!
http://rightwingnews.com/mt331/2009/06/the_15_hottest_conservative_wo.php
I am more concerned about this failed president and his foolish adventurism in Afghanistan.
The moombats and wingnuts are primarily there for entertainment value and thanks to both more and more voters put an (I) as affiliation. I note that the current far wingnut extremism mirrors the far moonbat extremism of the 60s and 70s. Just better weapons now.
Mosque near Ground Zero shows a degree of insensitivity on the part of the Iman who has never been willing to state that 9/11 was an act of terrorism. I think Ebenezer is too mild on his condemnation.
How is Obama responsible for “foolish adventurism in Afghanistan”?
And “failed president” is a pretty quick rush to judgment for someone who has been in office less than 19 months and had deal with Bush’s wars, Bush’s failed foreign policies, and Bush’s surplus2deficit tricks, and Bush’s recession.
The failed President – Jimmy Obama – managed to up the ante by 30,000 troops in Afghanistan. Draw the parallels to history. This is now Obama’s war and he has chosen to pursue it. McGovern he is not.
Blame it on Bush mantra is passe. Take a look at the mood of the country and trends. TP exists primarily thanks to Obama. If the Republicans had anything of merit to toss to the masses in 2012 he’d be one and out. As it now is the Democrats have managed to win back the “Culture of Corruption” title.
@bogofree
Bogo – it’s only been 19 months. You have an attention span that is more typical of Gen X’er weaned on MTV than whichever generation you belong to.
Blame it on Bush is not passe – it’s the truth. And I’d take Jimmy Carter any day over Reagan – the father of the modern massive deficits. If Carter’s energy initiatives hadn’t been dismantle by the ol’ Gip, we wouldn’t be as far behind in green energy technology as we are.
Carter failed to inspire and wasn’t there long enough to be effective – but the last Republican President that was any better was Teddy Roosevelt – who I’m sure would be a Democrat if he was around today.
Mark….the Obama sycophants are running around with their dwindling numbers attempting to place his failed economic policies on a long gone administration. He owns it. He owns a war he is expanding. Has anything worked? Nope. The economy is in the tank and this two bit Chicago hack has made the Bush spending spree look like an afternoon at Wal-Mart. If this is what he is capable of destroying in 19 months I can just imagine what disaster awaits in the next year or so. Then again he’ll be attempting to deal with a Republican Congress or one so slim that the Democrats realize it is astute politics to distance themselves from this albatross as many already are doing or just jumping ship. – at least those that are not facing indictments.
This lightweight has office for only one reason and that is the incredible incompetency of the previous failed administration. We replaced one problem with one that is even greater. That will be corrected.
Carter was just sooo marvelous that even Ted Kennedy attempted to unseat him and divide the party. ‘Nuf said – that speaks volumes for the Carter years.
BTW- Barack was the name of Muhamed’s horse, so maybe it should be highlighted too.
I bet if neo nazis had a religion, and they wanted to build a place of worship there, they would get the same measure of backlash. A mosque at that site is in very poor taste, and it show’s weakness. Maybe peace loving worshipers will enjoy it five times a day, but it will only fuel the badseeds. This counrty was built on war, hate, injustice, lying, cheating, etc.
I’ll remain a traditionalist on this one. If they build it, lets fly a couple planes into it and see what kind of reaction it gets. Mark, so far Obama ain’t nuthin but a black Bush.
But the point of the post : How do you refuse it without violating the Constitution?
If you take away Obama’s high intelligence, accomplishments, leadership, and surround him with nut-job neocons and give him a history of drug/alcohol abuse – I would agree that he is very like Bush.
I think I addressed the issue of appropriateness. Freedom of religion is absolute, but not the location of a building. I have freedom of speech, but you don’t have to provide me with a platform. There are zoning ordinances, historic districts, building codes, etc. that restrict what you can build. Try to build a packy next to a church, or a strip club next to an elementary school and see what happens.
Nobody is denying the Muslims the right to build a mosque, just not in that location. There are hundreds of mosques in NYC. There are probably thousands of more appropriate locations for this mosque.
I wonder if the Catholics could build a giant cathedral in Mecca, right next to the Ka’aba? (Check the Qu’ran for the answer.) Muslims are burning down churches even in Egypt, supposedly a fairly liberal Muslim country.
In democracies the government, religion and economic systems are separate. They may overlap and they may attempt to influence on another but they do remain separate. As far as I can determine the only states today that have significant aspects of theocracy are Islamic states and the Vatican.
@bumpkin
You can’t be a pol anywhere in the world without beng inherently evil. Being a pol in the U.S.A. is all about “self preservation” and not preservation of the Constitution or this country. Our Constitution is being “tweaked” daily. If you do good for one group, you are in turn, hurting another. Automatic. Just a realists opinion. Neither right or left.
To Bogofree and Ebenezer Attaquin:
It is refreshing to read clear, concise arguments on this, or any issue. I applaud you both.