Statists, religion, and medicine
In this installment of Mike is always wrong, I’m accused of being a statist which is crazy because I’m a left wing nutjob whose trying to promote his agenda of getting welfare benefits for gay pot-smoking greyhounds.
Mike and I also discuss whether or not a medical practitioner should be compelled to offer treatments that clash with their religious beliefs.
Mike: Dude… I finally figured it out reading the comments of your latest post at nemasket.net. You are a statist. You believe that the state takes precedent over the individual… that the state defines right/wrong, moral/immoral, and should have control over the individual. You’re as bad as those you despise (the far right wing). it’s also why the slings and arrows that you fire my way don’t bother me much… you’re targeting them, and I’m safely in a different universe… the universe of individual rights. You know… the one that the founding fathers described in the Constitution and that every great president has fought to protect? And you’re right…. we should get together for dinner soon
Mark: I wouldn’t say "takes precedence" necessarily. I would say "sometimes takes precedence". For instance, the state should tax smoking to pay for the health costs associated with it.
Mike: Yes… but the state should not decide that smoking is wrong and not let people do it.
Mark: Unless the common good is better served. For instance making it illegal to possess weapons grade plutonium.
Mike: You’d say that health care workers that are currently aiding and saving people in Haiti from the United States shouldn’t be allowed to practice here if they don’t want to do abortions…. which is insane.
Mark: Yes and no. They should not be practicing here and no that’s not insane.
Mike: Sorry… no and yes. You’re just plain wrong on this one Mark, and no amount of hedging or statements otherwise can change it.
Mark: Not wanting to do abortions is OK for a private practice. It’s not OK for a person providing emergency services to a rape victim or other patient who might need an abortion – even a late term abortion – to save their life.
Mike: You’re OK with statism as long as der Fuhrer is enshrining the ideas that YOU like. It’s OK (not right, but should not be illegal) if it’s a PRIVATE hospital.
Mark: Even a private physician should be compelled to give the patient ALL medical options whether it conflicts with their belief in fairy tales or not.
Mike: even if they believe that by doing so they are committing murder???? WTF? I don’t agree with them, but I couldn’t compel someone to murder (even if it is by their definition).
Mark: So you’re hanging your hat on the treatment thing. Should the state allow private citizens to own weapons grade plutonium? RE: Murder. THEN THEY SHOULDN"T BE HEALTHCARE PROVIDERS.
Mike: You see?? individual rights. PERIOD. Even if I don’t agree with some of the decisions people make.
Mike: THAT’S why I’m not in the right wing that you think I am… they’d compel people to NEVER get an abortion, because it’s what they think.
Mike: Sorry Mark. You’re wrong. To deny them the ability to save lives by doing heart transplants because they won’t do abortions is cutting off your nose to spite your face…. insane and wrong.
Mike: There are plenty of physicians that will do abortions on demand, and that’s fine.
Mike: There’s plenty that would prescribe the medicine for the morning after pill… and that’s fine.
Mark: Sometimes abortion is the best medical option for the patient. If they won’t offer it then they are NOT meeting their PRIMARY responsibility of providing the best possible care to the patient.
Mike: To compel someone to do so is wrong. See a different doctor… transfer to a different hospital (the morning after pill can be prescribed any time up to 3 days after the event I believe).
Mike: I’m willing to bet, that in a life-saving situation, the surgery would be performed.
Mark: Example. Your wife is six months pregnant and has some condition that is seriously threatening her life. Now your right wing nutjob doctor downplays or doesn’t even mention the efficacy of abortion as an option – even though it’s the best one. That’s wrong.
Mike: That is, if the surgery was performed, one life is lost, if not, two lives are lost. I’m willing to bet that any physician, given that as a choice, would choose to lose one life… even the radical religious right nut-jobs.
Mark: "I’m willing to bet" – gimme a break. It should not be a choice – it should be REQUIRED.
Mark: And the fact that the teabagging homophobe went out of his way to create such an amendment reveals him for the far right winger that he is.
Mike: Sorry. I disagree. And quoting Keith Olberman does NOTHING to enhance your credibility… it’s as bad as right-wing religio nut-jobs quoting Rush Limbaugh… they’re cut from the same cloth, one communist, and one fascist, both statist and BOTH COMPLETELY INSANE AND WRONG.
Mark: Your half right. Rush is wrong.
Mike: So when’s a good time for dinner?
Mike: Not my half. Not in a million years
Mark: The Olberman thing was a riot – that just cracked me up.
Mark: Maybe a week from this Sat. We’re going to a show in plymouth.
Mike: I have to admit… I laughed too… he’s entertaining certainly. But, the same as Rush, he’s got an agenda, and he pushes FAR in his particular direction. I’d never listen to him for substantive policy advice.
Mike: OK. I’ll have to check the calendar.
Mike: I’d fall back to the ideals of free speech…. you only agree with free speech if you do so for speech you despise. Or put another way: "I may not agree with what you say, but I’d fight to the death for your right to say it." I’d err in that same direction for all things in public policy. I don’t have to agree with people’s decision, but at the end of the day, it’s their decision, not mine.
Mark: Including private ownership of weapons grade plutonium?
Mike: The funny thing is, I get in the same trouble with people I know that I consider to be right-wing religio nut jobs as I do with you… they think I’m a left wing nut and lump me in with Oberman because I defend your side too… for instance, a woman’s right to choose should NEVER be taken away (even if I personally find that choice in most cases to be abhorrent).
Mike: As in all things, including science (for instance, Relativity falls apart at extremely small scales, and quantum physics falls apart at large scales), pushing things to ridiculous extremes causes even the best theories to fall apart.
Mark: OK then, how about seatbelts, helmets, drinking ages, DUI, drugs, etc.
Mike: Clearly, the state has some need to impose restrictions on the individual… but it should err on the side of freedom. Seatbelts should not be required, nor helmets, assigning the drinking age to the same age as adulthood makes sense, similar with drugs. HOWEVER, making a bad choice and not wearing a helmet and dying or becoming a quadriplegics is not the state’s, or my problem… it’s yours because of your own stupid decision.
Mike: DUI should be illegal.
Mike: sorry I missed that on the first list.
Mike: Because the risk with DUI is others… not just yourself.
Mark: And when a severely injured helmet-less motorcycle rider shows up at the hospital uninsured – what happens? The state(ME) pays for it.
Mike: You should be happy about that… it’s what you want… the state pays for everything, right?
Mark: Same with drugs. Drug addiction fuels crime, increases police/court/treatment costs – all of which I have to pay for. Or even become the victim of some drug-addled criminal.
Mark: "Clearly, the state has some need to impose restrictions on the individual" – spoken like a true statist
Mike: Legalize drugs, tax them, use the money to pay for addiction treatment, the crimes that are related to drug addiction are already illegal and punishable, and should remain so.
Mike: And like any liberal, you take that quote out of context… what was the next phrase in the statement?
Mark: I happen to agree with that but you see my point.
Mark: The next statement was "I’m a teabagging right wing homophobe nutjob"
Mike: F-U !!!
Themocracy
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At least there wasn’t any Caino talk. (LOL)
I sometimes go minutes in a row w/no C talk.